There is a misconception among many on the www that whatever appears on web pages and social media sites (to include text, photos or other graphics) is in the Public Domain, and therefore available for downloading and unlimited use. There are also others who know that this is not true, but still feel (often with arrogance) it is their prerogative to download and use any and all material as they see fit.
A sampling of many dozens of copyrighted photos and graphics that have been taken from this site over the years without prior request. Seldom do we see even the bare minimum accreditations.
In fact, as stated above, much of what is found on the Web, to include text and photos, is copyrighted material. One of the most active, most often revised, most often amplified, most often litigated sections of U.S. Copyright Law (Title 17 of the United States Code) and U.N. World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) concerns copyright protection on the Internet. Curious readers are invited to Google these laws for their own edification, however the quick 'take-away' is that copyright protection is equally extended to creators of content on the Internet, and whether or not that content is identified as 'Copyrighted', it is copyrighted at the moment of its creation, the protection under the law exists undiminished.
Another grouping of copyrighted photos that were either provided to us by the owners, or that we took ourselves over the course of the last 17 years. These photos were found by us on other sites, again, seldom with even an attribution.
As with all copyrighted material, use by others of copyright material found on the Web is permitted under certain circumstances. Please see "Fair Use" as defined in Sections 107 through 118 of the copyright law (Title 17, U. S. Code)https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html :
"
17 U.S.C. § 107
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. The nature of the copyrighted work;
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole;
and,
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. "
Also: "The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported. "
Bangkok Eyes occasionally uses material sourced from others, and is compliant with Copyright Law in all such usages. We also state clearly on our website that material submitted to us by others is assumed to be in the Public Domain unless that material has been specifically identified by the submitting party as Copyrighted. We further note that we reserve the right to use all or any part of submitted material on our website unless the material has been identified as copyrighted or the person submitting the material has stated the material may not be used by us. In each such usage by us, we provide attribution to the submitting party. In the event Bangkok Eyes is notified after the fact that material previously submitted to us and used by us is copyrighted, we will immediately remove such material. (We have, on request, removed material claimed to be copyrighted by others on 2 occasions over the last 17 years.)
We at Bangkok Eyes routinely browse the Nitelife websites on Internet to keep ourselves updated with what is going on in other areas of Night Entertainment. We have noted through the years that a number of our photos and maps have been taken by others and used on their Nightlife websites, many of those being commercial websites. Often our photos have been re-photoshopped to delete our "bangkokeyes.com" watermark and or cropped and or stretched to make them appear different from our originals. Only rarely has anyone requested permission from us to use our photos (we have agreed each time), and seldom has any attribution been displayed by those 'users'. We have also taken note of reuse, commercial and private, of our thumbnail histories of the various Night Entertainment Areas, often taken out of context and even elaborated upon with inaccuracies.
Purchase of Copyright Usage Rights & Copyright Scams
Use of copyrighted material is made available by individuals and companies on the Internet through purchase of 'rights of use'. Those sites are in business to make money through the sale or lease of copyrighted material, and this is their prerogative. More power to them.
We recently came across a photo of Soi Cowboy on offer by Getty Images for US$465.
However there are a number of unscrupulous individuals who approach websites which have used material not of their creation, claiming they are the owners of the material and threaten the using website with a lawsuit and having their site removed from the Internet. Many times the material is in the Public Domain, and the website being threatened is not aware of this, falling victim to the scam. The scammers are, of course, not the owners of the material either (be it Public Domain or actual Copyrighted material), and are just working the percentages - a certain number of those websites actually pay the scammers.
As a precaution, Bangkok Eyes retains the original of all our photos and use only cropped and Photoshopped copies on our website - our originals (and their metadata) establishing provenance.
Further, we at Bangkok Eyes / The Midnite Hour have, from the outset some 17+ years ago, stated: "Bangkok Eyes holds to the concept that the Internet is in the Public Domain and for public use." And we have encouraged free use of our copyrighted material for private persons. However, other than for personal viewing and use, and legitimate "Fair Use", no other downloading, or storage, or application of Bangkok Eyes copyrighted material is authorized without prior written permission from Bangkok Eyes. Any authorized use of Bangkok Eyes copyrighted material is conditional on attribution to Bangkok Eyes and/ or bangkokeyes.com for each usage. Sale of or otherwise using Bangkok Eyes copyrighted material for commercial purposes or personal gain, is not authorized.
As a result, we at Bangkok Eyes have implemented a 'reminder' on our copyrighted photos, and copyrighted photos of others which we have used with permission. The reminder is in the form of a 'floating' 'mouse-over' popup :
Yes, yes... we realize that any photo, or part of any website can be copied by 'Print Screen', 'View Source urls', and 'site-ripping', but we are in hopes our 'reminder' will improve Internet etiquette, respect for others' works, and conformance to copyright to some measurable degree.
READER : Hi Guys,
I’m a big fan of this site & a long time visitor to BKK where I take R&R time off from the oil rigs. My question is; have you any information on the ( demise of) the Limelight or Lime Light Lounge A Go Go that many years ago used to be one the first bars at the lower end of Patpong 1 - near the Madrid I guess? I have never seen it mentioned – even in your all encompassing excellent 50 Years On history article in July. I have such great memories of that place – it was one of maybe the first to use dry ice as a part of their show dance routine,,,,,,,, but it was the women who made the place.
Please find above an image taken from the Country Road - pool, sports & girls bar, top (3rd) floor on the corner of Soi 19 & Sukumvit whilst the Skytrain was still under construction – Terminal 21 now - want to have guess at the date? Keep up the great work.
MIDNITE HOUR:
We remember the Limelight with equally fond memories, and have mentioned it a couple of times in earlier issues. Regrettably we don't have any good photos of that bar. Our only pic (low quality) is attached. The Limelight was opened in the early '80's (exact opening date not yet reconfirmed) and active during the '90's. It closed in July of 1997.
The Skytrain was open for business on the King's Birthday 1999, but your above pic is more recent than that - in that it shows the 'Skywalk' as already completed. The 'Skywalk' which was installed just under the Skytrain, and which leads to Robinson's and Times Bldg, was put in quite a bit later. The above archive snapshot is of the Country Road and its upstairs 'After Work' on Soi 19. Thanks for writing in.
READER :
As an aside, and to my understanding, Sexy Night Det 5 is still being managed/ run by the original owner(s) Lek and Bob. I'm not too sure of how much "hands-on" management they do now.
MIDNITE HOUR:
Although it has been some time since I have been back to Det 5, I occasionally exchange an email with Bob, and all indications are he is still at the helm. However, this is no excuse for my not paying another visit - way past due. The above photo is from our archives and was taken at their original Tobacco Road (Soi Zero) location.
Photos Copyright A. Bongsalla. Reproduced with permission.
READER : Hello.
Firstly a huge thanks for ur informal internet page. Perhaps a bit late, but on the subject of Mizu's Kitchen: I went in there looking while the wrecking crew was working. They allowed me to look around and I got some souveniers with me. I hope they can interest u. The front page of the menu clearly shows the older Patpong and even a banana tree to the right of the place. Regards
MIDNITE HOUR:
Many thanks for these memorable pics. We have run them through PhotoShop so that they will appear in better contrast on the Web. We note that Mizu's (or rather, the building in which Mizu's previously resided) is nearing completion of renovations. We do not yet know whether it will reopen as Mizu's.
READER :
Is (Bernard) Trink doing anything? When I first traveled to Pattaya at the Wild Chicken (before that the Nacho Noi) his column would be passed around and talked about through coffee and until the first beer. I loved his "Night Owl". We corresponded for awhile and agreed that Diana Washington's recording of 'What a Difference a Day Makes" was the greatest recording ever.
MIDNITE HOUR: Bernard Trink is still working at the Bangkok Post. An avid reader, he reviews a couple of books each week. He and his wife are occasionally spotted around town at a movie theater or on a Skytrain platform.
DARTS -
COMES OF AGE (IN A FREELANCER-RICH ENVIRONMENT)
Copyright D. Dymock - used with permission.
READER :
Your history of all bar areas can be summed up in one word “Fantastic”. When the Bangkok Darts league started those of us who spent a lot of time in our own favourite bars, were suddenly introduced to other bars and areas including bars that stood alone in a number of places that we would never have known about. The first meeting was held in a small Soi off Soi 20 and was packed out. The league was so successful that it resulted in the first Thailand Open to be held in Pattaya in 1984 - see picture above.
The original Loretta Bar in Soi Cowboy one evening dressed all the girls in wedding dresses. You could buy a rose for 20 baht to give to your favourite girl. Needless to say they soon ran out of roses even after buying extra in. So the roses had to be recycled after a girl had been given 20. They also had to bring in more seats from other bars. That was the year all the bars in the Soi go together and held a Street Party. Did you know that one of the original bars in Soi Cowboy owned by a Frenchman opened as a cinema in the afternoon showing English language films? Also the Grace Hotel coffee shop (Sukhumvit Soi 4) opened to free lancers was the forerunner of the famous Thermae. Almost next door was the original Beer Garden before moving to Soi 7. Once again thanks for all you hard work.
MIDNITE HOUR:
Your historical comments on the budding darts scene in Bangkok and Pattaya certainly reflect a significant part of Thailand's Night Entertainment story - something to which we have not paid nearly enough attention. Re: Lorettas on Cowboy, one just doesn't find that sort of scene any more in Bangkok.
Going wa-a-ay back, the Thermae Massage Parlor opened in 1965, and by the time we first visited the Coffee Shop in the basement in 1967 it was already a roaring all-night 'chicken farm' - the customers were mostly GIs assigned here and other GIs in town on R&R from Viet Nam (often the cause of conflicts). The Thermae Coffee Shop's only competition in the '60's was the Nana Hotel Coffee Shop, which, likewise had mostly GI customers from the 'Ra-Jah' Hotel - which was an almost-next door R&R hotel.
By the time I first returned in '73 on an R&R, the Grace Hotel Coffee Shop had started to click as another go-to destination for freelancers, and by the time many of us returned to Bangkok from Viet Nam in '75', all three locations (Nana, Grace, Thermae) were freelancer havens. Many of us recall travelling by tuk-tuk from the Grace to the Thermae with ladies-of-the-evening who thought their chances of finding a john there would be better.
The 'second wave' to hit modern day Thailand after the GIs was the 'German Invasion', which commenced flooding into Thailand in 1977. The Night Scene owes them for both the beer bars (bar bier) [ which kicked off big, at first, in Pattaya ], and beer gardens (bier garten) here in Bangkok. The Frenchman you are thinking of is likely Michele, whose bar, the Jet-Set Lounge, was in two separate locations on Cowboy due to lease expirations.
Surviving longer than virtually all the bars on the Patpongs, this tiny roadside shop Took Jai Sao has been selling ladies' A Go-Go gear and sundries for over 40 years. The owner also has two smaller branch shops located in the Patpongs. May they persevere...
PATPONG 1
The Flares Disco had its (very) soft opening just at the turn of the month. It is co-located with its parent, Shenanigans, and 'shares' its Patpong 1 'location'. We will hopefully have better pics next issue. Welcome them to the neon wars...
The gay Dream Boy, new to Patpong 2 last month, has improved on its neon over the last month. A pic for the Archives...
PATPONG 2
The Black Pagoda doesn't miss a beat, any excuse for a rocking-good time, and hitting the street with the best graphics in town. Let the good times roll...
Woodstock
...THE ANNIVERSARY - OF COURSE
PATPONG 2
The Triple 888 Massage is located on the 3rd level, above The Ramp (aside the Pavilion Place Hotel). As such, it is rather difficult to find, should one be looking for a massage. The below sign adjacent to the stairway going up to The Ramp should help prospective customers navigate their way up...
The Cockatoo, down for renovations last month, has reopened. The renovations, to include some of the lighting, are somehow a little hard on the eye, and perhaps that's why we didn't see any customers... I suspect more changes are in the offing...
SOI COWBOY
Last month we featured the "Sahara-Kiss" as our "Door Art of the Month". However, after checking their website, is seems they prefer to be called the Kiss-Sahara. We couldn't help but wonder - the bar is a "double-shophouse" in width, having taken over two A Go-Go's in the past. So, are they using both (now-updated) A Go-Go licenses...? ...Idle minds, the Devil's workshop...
Last month, the New Voodoo popped out of their crypt of several years, occupying their old digs on the ground floor (first level) of Nana Plaza. This month, they have disappeared as quickly and as quietly as they appeared. In their place is yet another Twister sign.... Ah, well...
SOI NANA
Last month when we passed by the 3rd level Geisha, we noted that it was locked down tightly. Hearing the gossip in the street about 'money problems', we suspected the worst - but the worst did not eventuate. They are back in the saddle full bore (if we can mix a metaphore). Let 'er rip...
SOI NANA
Another one for the Archives... The New Lollipop has upped the amps on their neon - bigger and brighter than ever. Keep on keeping on...
We've lost count of the number of Nitespots that have tried their luck at the old Nana Disco digs aside the Nana Hotel. They have tried everything, Pilipinas, 'ladyboys', 'buy two drinks' for admission, staying 'Open Late', 'Ladies Free', you name it. All have failed, and failed fairly quickly. Now comes Bad Shah Club, advertised as "The Best Indian Night Club". ....Yeahhhh....but don't get us wrong, there have been some popular Nitespots in the past owned by Indians (who stayed in the background), but we can't think of a single 'Indian Nightclub' that has survived for long in any of the major Night Entertainment Areas. We were going to be placing bets on how long this one will last, but our bookie won't even answer our calls...
SOI NANA
The Lannana, a single-shophouse bar directly across Soi 4 from the Rajah Hotel went the way of the Dromornis. They had only been open since November 2018. Greener pastures, ladies...
SOI NANA
The King Indian Night Club has replaced the King Night Club - (actually a 'renaming exercise'). If any of our readers knows why the management thought adding the word 'Indian' to the name would be an improvement, please let us know... Located on the second level of the Rajah Hotel outbuilding.
SOI NANA
Relax Time Massage had combined with the Hollywood Salon some months back. But now they have a small sign out front advertising as Relax Time once again. Hmmm...
The Jupiter 2018 has gone through a rebranding (and re-sign-making) exercise - becoming the New Arena Jupiter 2018. Info only... we see no advantage to this other than a brighter, shinier sign...
SOI KATOEY
The upstairs Hugs has reopened. Again. As we have noted before, statistically speaking, once bars fall into the Open-close-open-close mode - they have already failed, they just haven't realized it yet... But - giving them the benefit of the doubt, let's wish them longevity...
SOI KATOEY
Continuing right along with the series of seemingly meaningless bar name-changes, the upstairs Banana Boys import from the Twilight Zone have changed their name (and expensive signage) to Banana Room Club.... Hey, if they somehow perceive this to be an advantage....
The short-lived Ang Bar @ 22 located directly across Soi 4 from the Queen's Park Plaza has closed down tighter than Alcatraz, and the "For Sale" signs are up. Perhaps they should have tried to hang in there a little longer, to see whether or not the QPP does the chicken.... Just sayin'.
SOI 22
In the Honey Plaza, the upstairs Luna Lounge has reopened, continuing its open-close-open habits. We wish them luck, but it is hard to imagine regular customers coming back if they see the bar closed much of the time....
SOI 22
The long-standing The Connection Bar, having just remodeled some months back, is now closed. Hmmm, this is definitely a 'wait-and-see' item - we will check back next survey and see if they have returned to the travails.
SOI 22
The Paradise Massage is now calling itself Paradise S22, while its soi-mate, the Kiss Bangkok 3 Massage is now calling itself Kiss Bangkok 3 Massage & Bar. Musical chairs are so frequent in this sub-soi (Sub-soi Lemongrass) we have decided to wait to see if these new names are going to stick - at which time, we shall record for the Archives...
The Old German Beerhouse closed down several months ago, moving to Soi 13, while renovations were made to the entire building. The plan all along was to return to the Soi Ambassador location once renovations were completed, and that is just exactly what happened. Welcome home.
The Old German Beerhouse on 11 renovations were most professional, giving the Nitespot that 'look of success'. They are easily the most impressive of the 'new' Night Entertainment Venues to come on line this month - easily the Door Art Of The Month choice.
SOI AMBASSADOR
(Sukhumvit Soi 11)
When the newly relocated Hemingway opened in March, there was an archway leading to the 'up' staircase to the right hand side that was covered over - the lettering on the archway was obscured. This month the wraps came off, and it looks like Hemingway's upstairs is, or will soon be the Market Rooftop. More on this next round.
SOI AMBASSADOR
(Sukhumvit Soi 11)
The long-standing Marco bar & restaurant was closed and covered in tarps - renovations proceeding feverishly. We do not know if this is just a sprucing-up, or whether a new Venue is slated for that space. We'll keep an eyeball peeled and get back atcha.
SOI AMBASSADOR
(Sukhumvit Soi 11)
Lek's Last Stand isn't actually on Soi Ambassador, but it is more-or-less surrounded by it and Soi 11/1, so we will include it as an historical item. It has been open for 3 months - and seems to be holding its own...
In light of the most recent renewal of yesteryear's well-worn rumor that the Queen's Park Plaza will be closed due to sale of the property, we include, for the archives, a quick video clip of the Soi 22 frontage. We note that the current reading of this rumor is : if ...IF... the QPP closes, then the decision to do so will be made in "a few" months. We also note that 65 baht and such rumors as this will get you a glass of iced coffee at the Thermae...
The Nippon-oriented Club Kitty has taken over from the Blue Heaven. Located half way down Sub-soi Pan Pan. It has an interesting 'display' window, which we have not seen hereabouts. Orientation unchanged.
SOI DEAD
ARTISTS (Sukhumvit 33)
The upstairs Kizuna Bar next to the Pan Pan Italian Restaurant has reopened again - opening and closing getting to be a (bad) habit...
SOI DEAD ARTISTS
(Sukhumvit 33)
The Daisy Dream specialty massage has opened at the far end of Sub-soi 3. Perhaps the most elaborate and well-appointed Venue of its type (we estimate a minimum of 5 million baht in renovation / decoration costs), it offers the standard 'menu' of services, to include one and two 'masseuses', at standard (up-market) prices. Welcome them to the slippery slope...
The katoeySweet Heart Bar is one of several Nitespots to employ "projection" advertising - a projector displays a revolving picture (usually the name of the Venue) onto the pavement or sidewalk where passers-by will (hopefully) take notice. It helps if the pavement or sidewalk is clean....
Bangkok Eyes
goes back in time to see
Who was new - And who was through
in the Expat Night Entertainment world.
How many of these old 'oases'
do you remember ?
Patpong I
September 1999
*Note: As a result of a 1999 crackdown by the Sign Gestapos, the bars on Patpong 1 were required to display their legal registered names. (Some of you long-time residents and return visitors from an even earlier era will remember when these bars still displayed those previous [registered] names...) While we show those registered names below, we will continue to refer to the then-current 'displayed' names.
SuperGirls - (registered name: Blue Angel Bar)
Lady Night - (registered name: Star of Love)
Gold Finger's - (registered name: Erotica)
Lipstick - (registered name: Pink Lady)
Club Habanos - (registered name: [part of] Erotica)
Fire Cat - (registered name: Wild Cat)
Kiss - (registered name: Dear Nat)
SuperStar - (registered name: P.P. Super)
Super Pussy - (registered name: Tiger)
Patpong 2
September 1999
* The Suzie Wong bar beer opened on 'The Island'. Today those digs are occupied by Horse Shoes bar beer.
Soi Cowboy
September 1999
* No changes that month / year.
Nana Plaza
September 1999
* No changes that month / year.
Soi Katoey ( Silom Soi 4 )
September 1999
*Tom Boy A Go Go opened in the just-closed Perfect Boy & Pub. Today that loc is occupied by The Stranger.
*Rome Club Discotheque closed. (The Rome Club - new branch - on the opposite side of the Soi remained open.) Today that loc is occupied by Welcome Bar.
* The long-running Film Mix closed its doors. Today those digs are occupied by Bas Living Room.
*White Latin opened newly. Today those digs are occupied by Tapas Cafe.
*Pharoah's Karaoke opened on the second floor above Sphinx. Today those digs, both upstairs and down, are occupied by Fork & Cork - located at the end of the Soi.
Buckskin Joe Village (~ December 1988 to December 2006)
(Also known -originally- as Tobacco Road or Soi Rot Fai or, 'The Tracks', and later as Machim [Thai] and Soi Zero)
September 1999
* The Sexy Night Det 5 relocated to its new digs under the Expressway.
*The Last Stand Bar opened newly in the old Tequila bar beer.
Washington Square (~ April 1999 to April 2014)
September 1999
* The No Probl'm Cocktails Lounge closed down and commenced renovating.
"Clinton Plaza"
(Was ''Entertainment Plaza'')
[ February 1999to May 2003 ]
September 1999
*Charlies On Sukhumvit - Against main building - NEW *Porn Tory - Against main bldg. - CLOSED *Monica's - Along the side wall - NEW
''13 Night Market'' Entertainment Area"
(Was 'Old Thermae Compound')
[ September 1999 - February 2005 ]
In the 1960's, a derelict section of stone wall in Llanrhystud, near Aberystwyth, Wales, was painted over with the graffiti “Cofiwch Dryweryn”, which, in the Welch language means; 'Remember Tryweryn'. And it was not 'thrown up' without motivation...
A bit of graffiti becomes a rally cry for a small nation...
In 1965, the UK parliament decreed that a reservoir would be constructed in the Tryweryn Valley in north Wales to provide water for the city of Liverpool 'across the way' in England. The inescapable consequence was, of course, the inundation of the Trywerin Valley, to include the township of Capel Celyn and all the valley's flora and fauna.
The repeated vandalism of the original precipitated a proliferation of copies...
Come to find out, the original graffiti inscription was painted on that remote section of wall by Meic Stephens, a Welsh literary editor and poet. And graffiti being graffiti, it inevitably suffered at the hands of other graffiti 'artists' - with obfuscating inscriptions such as 'Elvis', etc,. To the surprise of almost everyone, the repeated defiling of the original graffiti, taken together with the lingering displeasure over the flooding of Capel Celyn was all it took to fuel the flame of Welsh nationalist feelings - the wall and its inscription have become the default icon and the rally cry of the Wales nationalist movement.
The repeated 'vandalism of this vandalism' has, not surprisingly, sparked a flurry of other 'Cofiwch Dryweryn' graffiti across wales (and reportedly cross-border). It also motivated a private business person to seek out the owner of the land on which the nascent national landmark sits, with an intention to purchase that sliver of real estate. Now that the purchase has been finalized, the new owner is seeking out Tro’r Trai, a local charity, to manage the site - in hopes this is the best means of preserving the 'Remember Tryweryn' wall for posterity. The beat goes on...
Graffiti #1116
Dog Ate My Homework
46 ft high x 42 ft (est)
Graffiti #1117
Hoodie Hair
7 ft high x 19 ft
Graffiti #1118
Krating Muang
8 ft high x 16 ft
Graffiti #1119
The Pool Mask
7 ft high x 5 ft
Graffiti #1120
We Done Someone's Roof
11 ft high x 11 ft (est)
Graffiti #1121
Basket Case
8 ft high x 7 ft
Graffiti #1122
Devil With A Blue Dress
12 ft high x 12 ft
Bangkok Eyes is an historically based news outlet, and as such, all graphic excerpts herein are considered,
under current legal precedents and
prevailing interpretations, 'Fair Use' under Copyright Law. Copyright of any original artwork resides exclusively with the artists.
Bangkok's original site !
The M
IDNITE HOUR Graffiti
Page
is prepared by Staff Contributor "Boge" Hartman
.
(Boge's photo, above, is not a
graffiti
per-
se, although there are those who have insinuated....
-
Ed)